Earlier this year experts from bird charities across Europe gathered in Scotland to share how they are working to save nature across the continent. Stephen is joined by Isobel Mercer to talk about how working together across national boundaries is more important than ever. We hear from people working all over Europe about the challenges they face. And there's time for some nature news including a close pass by a common sandpiper and a birding first for Isobel.
LINKS
Find out more about Birdlife's work here https://www.birdlife.org/europe-and-central-asia/
More on bird flu here https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/how-you-can-help-birds/disease-and-garden-wildlife/avian-influenza-updates/
Spotted Flycatcher ID https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/wildlife-guides/bird-a-z/spotted-flycatcher/
Earlier this year experts from bird charities across Europe gathered in Scotland to share how they are working to save nature across the continent. Stephen is joined by Isobel Mercer to talk about how working together across national boundaries is more important than ever. We hear from people working all over Europe about the challenges they face. And there's time for some nature news including a close pass by a common sandpiper and a birding first for Isobel.
LINKS
Find out more about Birdlife's work here https://www.birdlife.org/europe-and-central-asia/
More on bird flu here https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/how-you-can-help-birds/disease-and-garden-wildlife/avian-influenza-updates/
Spotted Flycatcher ID https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/wildlife-guides/bird-a-z/spotted-flycatcher/
This is Nature News from RSPB Scotland.
Stephen Magee:Hello and welcome to our podcast Nature News from RSPB Scotland. I'm Stephen Magee. This is where we bring you stories about nature from global news to the little things we're noticing every day. This is a podcast for everyone who loves nature and wants to know what they can do to help it. And we're keen to hear your nature news, whether it's the little moments you've experienced or your thoughts on the big issues affecting the planet. You can contact us on Twitter@RSPBScotland or email us at podcast.scotland@rspb.co.uk. And please subscribe and leave a review because it helps other folk find us in the podcast jungle. As you join us, we're sitting by the Water of Leith. I'm with Isobel Mercer, Senior Policy Officer, hello Isobel.
Isobel Mercer:Hello.
Stephen Magee:And we are watching a family of Eider Ducks just cruise slowly past us. How many? How many big babies is that? I mean, the more like teenagers than babies, aren't they? But...
Isobel Mercer:I think there's 8.
Stephen Magee:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, yeah, mum and eight. She is doing well.
Isobel Mercer:She's doing very well.
Stephen Magee:She's got them on to a decent size. And this, here we are sitting on the Water of Leith, kind of in a really urban environment. There's Eider Ducks. You know, there's been Mallards about, there's been Black-Headed Gulls. I saw a Moorhern earlier on. In the winter, there'll be like there's Goldeneye down here, there's a couple of Pigeons having a fancy time in front of us. It's just a fantastic spot for a city.
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, it is amazing. To be honest, it just continually kind of astounds me, like I come here every day, like three times a day and see things that I wouldn't expect to see. And it's just been, I mean, I think a bit of a lifeline as well, you know, throughout the last few years locked down and everything like that, but it is- to be in the middle of a city and see things like either and then a bit further up there's a little patch of woodland and there's quite often Goldfinches and Dunnocks and Bullfinches and all kinds of things.
Stephen Magee:Well the other nice thing about the Water of Leith is like so you stay in Leith right?
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, I live just around the corner from here.
Stephen Magee:And where I stay is like what five miles up the river, right. So the river literally you know links us as well as all these nature habitats. Right.
Isobel Mercer:Smooth.
Stephen Magee:I know, very smooth. So my bit right, where I am, I can see Grey Wagtail, Dippers, I've seen Otter, all that kind of sweet - more kind of like, you know, your traditional kind of like river kind of like animals and birds and stuff. And then down here, you've got like all these estuary-type things, because we're so near the sea.
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, exactly. And we don't - I haven't seen Dippers on this bit. But I have seen quite a lot of Kingfishers, which is nice. And once an Otter. But the Eiders - it's kind of my favourite time of year down here. Because suddenly they're just all here and the males have gone now but when the males are here, the noise is just totally wonderful, isn't it? And now -
Stephen Magee:Weird kind of semi-electronic kind of - yeah, kind of like squishy toy noise.
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, totally. And now all the kind of young is- yeah, it's pretty special I think.
Stephen Magee:So nature news is in the title and we're going to start with our nature news. I'll start with mine, right. I was lucky enough - I had a few days off, gosh, like back in start of June now. And I went to Loch Ossian, right, to the hostel at Ossian it's a beaut-amazing place, you go to the train at Carrour, you get off at Carrour in the middle of nowhere - it's the Trainspotting train station. Right if you remember that. I won't quote it, this is a family podcast. And then you wander down to the hostel and the loch is beautiful and I went for a swim in the loch. And when I was swimming in the loch, you know, just your nose and the top of your head out of the water so you're not really very visible to stuff and two Common Sandpipers came around the corner and flew right over the top of my head and they only realised that I was there as they got over my head and they both put on the air brakes like to pivot and get away because it's like, there's a human head in the loch, what's happening. So I could actually hear like the air as their wings - oh yeah, it was just fantastic. Amazing. What about you?
Isobel Mercer:Well I'm not sure I can top Sandpipers pivoting...
Stephen Magee:It's not a competition! It's just... you know.
Isobel Mercer:I was lucky enough to get out last week away from my desk which doesn't happen all the time these days, so that was very nice. So went out to the Angus Glens, which was beautiful and I was lucky enough to see a pair of Golden Eagles actually. So that was awesome, very, very successful day and also saw a Spotted Flycatcher which was cool. First time I've ever seen one.
Stephen Magee:What was it doing?
Isobel Mercer:It was just sat on a gate.
Stephen Magee:And they do this amazing thing, where they'll find like a wee spot like on the edge of a tree or something like that, that's got lots of midges around it or other bugs. And they'll just flick out, kind of turn in the middle of the air, like quite often and like turn like almost upside down or whatever, catch a couple of flies, come back, eat them, do the same thing again. They're just constantly flicking out like that, like really busy.
Isobel Mercer:Amazing.
Stephen Magee:Yeah they're amazing wee guys, then we can you think about a little bird, a tiny bird like that doing these huge migrations and stuff.
Isobel Mercer:Yeah.
Stephen Magee:Yeah, amazing. So it's not just about our nature news. It's also about news in the wider world. The first thing that I want to talk about is actually, there was a Black-Headed Gull earlier on, right. And it was nice to see one but it did make me think about unfortunately bird flu, which we seem to be talking about it in pretty much in every you know, nature news that we do in the podcast, but it's just such a massive thing. So early on in the season, there was a lot of hope that maybe bird flu, you know that we were going to dodge a bullet this year on bird flu. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Black-Headed Gulls in particular have been hit very hard. Reckon we've lost about 10% of the UK's population of Black-Headed Gulls, also big impacts on Tern colonies. Also, the early info coming back from the survey work that RSPB and other partners are doing is that numbers are down in breeding colonies of things like Bonxies, Great Skuas, that were very affected last year where a lot of them died last year. And that now is being complicated on top of that, by some other emerging impacts on seabirds from I mean, we don't know I mean, it's still an early stage to work out. But look's like the unprecedented warm weather we've had, warming sea temperatures, or the existing problems that we've had with prey availability for seabirds, that they are beginning to exacerbate this at all, we're seeing, you know, dead Kittiwakes, dead Auks like you know, Razorbills, Guillemots, along the east coast. It is a very, very critical difficult time for seabirds. We will - I think the next podcast that we do we'll look at this in its totality and try and give people as much a sense. But I'll put some stuff in the show notes about where people can find out more, but it's just a very difficult time. Now, the other bit of nature news that I wanted to give people is it's something potentially positive, which is that we will soon be asking you- we're still waiting for the Scottish Government to actually produce the consultation process. But the Scottish Government is going to consult on closing the sandeel fishery, which could potentially be an enormous win for the seabirds we were just talking about, right. And we want people keep an eye out for that. Right?
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, totally. So the main thing at the moment is to keep an eye out. We'll be speaking more to our supporters about this. But I guess the main thing to get across is it's really welcome that the Scottish Government are going to be holding this consultation, which is about basically ending the commercial fisheries of industrial sandeel fishing in Scottish waters. And this would be a total game changer, I think. And just in terms of that picture you were just painting about the pretty dreadful state of play at the moment for our seabirds, this is a measure that would be really critical in helping to build the resilience of a lot of those species. So keep an eye out and we'll be looking for you know, speaking to our supporters about this a bit more in due course but at the moment just brilliant, the commitments there and we look forward to seeing the consultation.
Stephen Magee:So Isobel, you're not just here to look at Eider Ducks, you're here -
Isobel Mercer:Sadly.
Stephen Magee:Sadly, I know, it's nice to do.
Isobel Mercer:Always nice with you Stephen, of course.
Stephen Magee:Of course, of course. But you - tell us about the event that you were involved with earlier in the year.
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, so in May, we had about 35 nature conservation experts come to visit us from all over Europe and Central Asia. So these are folks that are part of BirdLife Europe and Central Asia's Nature Climate Task Force. So it's a bit of a mouthful, but so we're going to talk in a bit, in a minute about what BirdLife is, what the BirdLife family is and why it's so important. But essentially this was a coming together of folk who work in nature conservation from all across that region, to really just share information, learn from each other, identify kind of shared opportunities and challenges. And it was just an amazing week, we learned so much from each other, visited Cairngorms Connect up in the Cairngorms so had a couple of amazing days of field trips there so that folk could see some of the work that we're doing on the ground here. And, um, yeah, it was just a totally brilliant week.
Stephen Magee:Well first I didn't get to the Cairngorms Connect bit, but I did hang around for a while when you guys we're all in Edinburgh and badger people with a microphone and this is what I heard. This is well and truly tourist season in Edinburgh. Lot of people milling about with backpacks. Guy playing the bagpipes. And they are not the only visitors here. A whole bunch of people from BirdLife have come to Edinburgh. Now, BirdLife is the international umbrella organisation for national organisations that look after birds and everything to do with birds. So you got people from right across the continent who've come here, put their heads together to try and think about the challenges that birds and other wildlife face across the continent and the solutions as well. So I am off to a slightly quieter corner of the Old Town in this to meet some of them and see what they're talking about. Right so I am joined by Isobel Mercer, friend of the podcast RSPB Scotland and also Ariel Brunner from - whose Director to Europe and - Central Asia. Europe and Central Asia for BirdLife. First of all, with everything that's happened with COVID and everything else, it must be great to have everybody all in one place, and able to actually talk and like share their experiences again.
Ariel Brunner:Yeah, it's actually wonderful. And these Taskforce meetings are a bit of the soul of BirdLife, because this is the moment where we bring together all these fantastic people that are fighting very hard difficult fights, often in very, very difficult places, from all across the continent, across cultures, across jurisdictions, and we get them in one room to think together about how can we save birds and nature and build a better future.
Stephen Magee:Because the majority of people, right, will be familiar with organisations like RSPB, you know, with their own domestic organisations. But what is BirdLife and what's special about it?
Ariel Brunner:So just think about BirdLife as the International Federation of the RSPB is of all the different countries around the world. And what's special about it is, first of all, this kind of bottom up democratic structure, you know, a lot of other NGOs are a bit more kind of top down structures that few clever people tell other people what to do. But BirdLife is really the ultimate global to local outfit. We represent real people, citizens that care. Those citizens are represented by national NGOs that are independent, that have their history, that have their culture, that are really local. And those organisations come together at an international level to work together to have a bigger - to have a bigger voice. And the other special thing is, of course, the being deeply rooted in science.
Stephen Magee:Yeah. And Isobel, from our point - from an RSPB point of view, how important is it to be part of that network?
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, it's super important. And I mean, we're really excited to have everyone here this week in Scotland. I think we just need to remember that perspective of everything that's happening in all of these different countries. Because as we all know, we kind of tout this line, but nature doesn't know any borders. It never has, it never will kind of recognise political borders, and it's super important that we will continue to collaborate. You know, obviously, the UK is no longer part of the EU, but we're still part of a shared bio-geographical environment. And we must still work together to tackle things like pollution, climate change, and save our migratory species. All of these things remain kind of absolutely critical for collaborative working.
Stephen Magee:The migratory thing was interesting because we were talking just before we did the interview, right? You grew up in Israel, and your experience, first of all, tell people a bit about your experience of migratory birds because I think you know, for us in the UK quite often it's a few Chiffchaffs turn up in the summer, right. Okay, but for you is something different right.
Ariel Brunner:No, it is different. We are talking about just one anecdote. I remember once when we were playing football at school and at that point, the game stopped because the light went off. And it was just a cloud of Storks obscuring the sun and it was 16,000 Storks that past over my high school in one go. I will have a lot more but it gives you kind of the idea. It is a bit of an ornithological wonderland, because there is basically a superhighway of birds that goes from Europe and Asia down to Africa and they all cram down that narrow corridor.
Stephen Magee:And that scale is really important because when we're talking about super-national, you know, corporate, or corporation between democratic organisations like we're talking about here, right? Some of these birds have like almost unimaginable global identities compared to us as rooted people in one place, right?
Ariel Brunner:Well, of course. I mean, the ultimate one is the logo of BirdLife, which is the Arctic Tern, which breeds around the Arctic, including in Scotland and spends the winter in Antarctica, and it goes up and down basically around the world every year. So that's the most obvious thing is, you know, think about your iconic birds here. Big conservation success stories like the Osprey. If you want to save Ospreys, you can't save them just in Scotland, you need to save them all the way from here to Senegal, where they pass the winter. And if along the way, they get shot, or they fly on electricity pole, or they starve because the wetland has no water in it. They are not going to come back next year.
Stephen Magee:For us Isobel, one of the odd things about this now, right, we are more aware of this global context than ever, it's incredibly important to us. But because of events, the UK is no longer part of these kinds of EU debates. So where do we fit in now, in this European scale?
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think going back to my point earlier, for the UK as a whole, it will still remain totally critical for us to work together on loads of the shared issues. But it's worth pointing out that in Scotland, specifically, there is huge opportunities, the Scottish Government has committed to stay aligned with the EU, it's what they call kind of keeping pace with EU, they're particularly keen to do that on environmental issues, environmental standards. So that does create a lot of opportunities for us to look at what is happening at the EU level, where there are really good outcomes being generated for the environment, and then how can we use that in a Scottish context and make it really work for us here. So I mean, we might come on to it. But the key thing I think for us we're looking at is the EU Restoration Law that was brought forward by the European Commission last year. It's kind of currently going through the legislative process at the EU. But in Scotland, we've got a natural environment bill promise that we're going to see come forward next year. That is a massive opportunity for us to keep pace with this Restoration Law, which by the way, is kind of one of the most exciting and ambitious pieces of legislation that's been proposed since well, Ariel will tell us, but maybe forever.
Ariel Brunner:Indeed or at least since the Habitats Directive in 1992, which created the Natura 2000 Network and has bought back and a lot of species to Europe. I think it's important to first of all remember that whatever is happening around these islands, in political terms, EU law does apply from Ireland to nowadays, actually, Georgia and Ukraine. Because some countries are accession countries, some countries have trade agreements with the EU. So there is a huge continent on your doorstep that is under the power of the jurisdiction. But there is also a bigger global picture around this law. The restoration agenda is a global agenda. We need to get our house in order, Europe is the continent that has wrecked itself the worst. It's the continent that frankly has wrecked the rest of the world.
Stephen Magee:I see it as being pivotely important to wreck the rest of the world.
Ariel Brunner:Yes, and it is the richest continent in the world where people have the better life overall. If we can show that we can step take a step back and give some space back to nature and walk with nature instead of against nature, then it becomes plausible to ask Indonesia or Brazil or Congo to keep vast areas of their land, steel and the rainforest.
Stephen Magee:Sitting in the position you're sitting in, right, being able to see all the things that you see, what's the direction of travel? I mean are you hopeful? Are things improving? Or are things getting worse?
Ariel Brunner:So both. Overall things are getting worse. I mean, if you look at what science is telling us about climate change, about collapse of biodiversity, it's very dark and getting darker and it's quite scary. But I think that we need to find hope in the successes that we've had. In a sense Birdlife, the Birds Directive in the EU, were created originally to a very large extent to deal with unsustainable hunting and prosecution of things like Birds of Prey and so on. The RSPB was born to save Egrets from....
Stephen Magee:To stop the trade in feathers, yeah.
Ariel Brunner:Right, if you look at virtually every species in Europe that was kind of large bodied, slow flying, slow breathing, easy to shoot, they are almost all doing better. The Great Egret which was down to kind of two colonies in Eastern Europe, today you can see it in the centre of Brussels, and you can see it in the UK increasingly. Think about Eagles, Storks, Cranes, they are all doing great. And they are doing great because of all the hard work that we have done together. And all those hard fights and those fights are not over. Raptor persecution is still happening in some dark corners of the continent. But things are incredibly better. Where it's not going well is with things like agriculture, where we have yet another study coming yesterday showing the kind of stuff that is happening when it comes to seabirds, when it comes to Arctic or mountain birds that are affected by climate change. Basically, most of the habitat specialists, those we are losing them, and we are losing them because of agriculture and forestry and fishing, and so on. But we have shown that when we identify the problem, and we turn around public opinion, and we transform public opinion into politics and politics into laws, and reinforce those laws, we can actually bring the birds back. And not just the birds, but everything that comes along with them.
Stephen Magee:One of the big issues being discussed here today is unsurprisingly bird flu. And I am joined by - I'll try and get this right, Wouter Langhout.
Wouter Langhout:Yes.
Stephen Magee:How was that, was that arlight? Who's a consultant working on bird flu stuff for BirdLife and also by Claire Smith, who's been on the podcast before, who looks after policy and bird flu for RSPB.
Claire Smith:Yep, in the UK.
Stephen Magee:So, I suppose I see first question is where are we with bird flu? We've been so through so many peaks and troughs and difficulties. Big picture Wouter, where are we?
Wouter Langhout:We are not in a great place. So this year is all about Black-Headed Gulls in Europe, outbreaks across the continent. And we also still see a steady global spread.
Stephen Magee:One of the things that bird flu makes you realise is the constant cycle and movement of birds that's going on even just with Black-Headed Gulls, when you think you know, our wintering gulls are not the same individuals as our breeding birds. Right. So you got it, you know, so even with the same species as this, and that's really what makes it such a challenge.
Wouter Langhout:Yes, yes. It also makes me realise very much how fragile birds are - how fragile bird populations are. So Sandwich Terns, for example, lives for a long time, has one or two chicks every year and one of this - an outbreak like last year, it can really set back the population for a decade.
Claire Smith:And I think we also because of this global picture, birds are now getting hit in their breeding grounds, but also their wintering grounds. So there's been Terns that have tested positive in West Africa. So they it's not just you know, they're the same populations that are coming back to Europe. So some of those birds won't even make it because they might die on migration or they might have died on the wintering grounds. So we're only seeing part of the picture when we see stuff on the breeding grounds here.
Stephen Magee:So I suppose one of the lessons from all of this is how fundamentally important monitoring is. How good a picture do we have globally of what's happening with bird flu?
Wouter Langhout:So it's unfortunately, it's quite limited. So we have reports on some of the outbreaks but a lot of the outbreaks go unrecorded. And we - for many populations, we don't know how big the impacts have been.
Stephen Magee:And when the other global aspect to this is, I guess rooted in actually the origins of the disease, which is a disease in poultry, right. And then people often you know, it's something that RSPB is often talking to its members and supporters, but also to policymakers about remembering that this the you know, there's a human influence in this, that this is a disease which originated in poultry, can be circulated amongst wild birds, wild birds are often the victims. But if you're going to deal with it, you have to deal with that. Where are we in terms of that global debate about dealing with its origins in poultry?
Wouter Langhout:Since the 60s, there have been a steady stream of high pathogenic variants emerging in poultry. And we see that as the poultry - the global poultry industry is growing, the number of new variants of highly pathogenic avian influenza emerging is going up steadily. I think we need to learn from the global outbreak of avian influenza, this is yet another warning sign that the current system, the current system, system of intensive poultry, but also other other animals, it cannot continue like this, we are we are setting ourselves up for a new pandemic.
Stephen Magee:And there was one thing that I wanted to pick up on it finally, which is this intriguing idea that we might now be thinking about vaccination for some wild birds. Tell me about that.
Wouter Langhout:So currently, vaccination is being debated for Californian Condors. I think when we see large outbreaks in species that are critically endangered, that very small populations, we need to think of vaccination as a measure of last resort. It is not as crazy as it sounds, some populations or wildlife have been vaccinated before, we need to prepare for these things to happen.
Stephen Magee:And it's an indicator, isn't it, of how profound the consequences of a new, unanticipated disease like this can be.
Claire Smith:I think for California Condors I mean, I think you were saying the other day, that's about maybe 350 individuals in the wild, we've lost 22 to bird flu, there are species that loads of conservation efforts already been put into, because they had real issues with lead, as soon as you know, so much conservation effort already into that species, and for them to just be hit now with bird flu is devastating. So I think you just want to have a real no regrets approach with, you know, with things down to those small numbers. And I think that's something that all countries should be looking at in terms of affected species, you know, what are the things where you're getting down to hundreds of individuals, and you really need to do something. And again, with that global picture, now we have bird flu all the way through South America. So that means it brings it into contact with places like the Galapagos where you've got endemic seabirds and things. So it's something that again, countries, you know, organisations or governments need to really be speaking to each other about this. And again, it links back to poultry because the reason why a lot of countries don't vaccinate is to do with trade. It's to do with trade agreements with other countries, that you can't have vaccinated birds and you can't have wild birds coming into contact with vaccinated birds. So there's some really unintended consequences and complicated things that you need to just unpick and make sure that legislation is ready to go if you have got a vaccine that you can use. And there have been some tests with vaccines already, there has been some work with Peregrines. So it's something that we know it's not a completely far fetched idea, it's something that we know can work for some species.
Stephen Magee:It is now the evening. And there is a bit of a reception, cold coalition beverages on offer, everybody's socialising. And the chance to catch up with a few more people from some different places. I have quickly grabbed Justyna Choroś, from the Polish Society for Protection of Birds. And on your borders, you have had this awful, you know, year and a half. And you've been supporting colleagues from Ukraine, Ukrainian organisations, what's that been like?
Justyna Choroś:It's hard, but we are happy that we can help. But what is most important, we really hope that this war will end soon and what we want to focus on is thinking what will be after the war.
Stephen Magee:And one of one of the things I suppose that people might not have thought about when they're seeing this conflict unfold on our, you know, on our doorstep. It's of course it's having an impact not just on people but on nature. And it's a catastrophe for that as well.
Justyna Choroś:It's really hard to answer this question because of course, we are working with people and first about which we think is people, is their suffering. But we have to remember that, also, our colleagues were working for years, sometimes decades on nature, for them is also suffering to see what is going on with their heritage, because it's heritage of Ukraine. So it's not only nature, or some people thinks it's because you are working with birds and other no butterflies, no, it's heritage of this country. So also, we have to remember that this heritage must be maintained and after war, we have that, like I said, we could be working with them on this heritage of their country.
Stephen Magee:Because ultimately, what the BirdLife organisation is about, is about solidarity. And that's what this is.
Justyna Choroś:Yes, this isn't- thank you once more BirdLife family, for being with us and let's stay together.
Mark Ruskell:Well, can I very much welcome you to tonight's event. Some great conversations are already happening around the room. My name is Mark Ruskell, MSP for Scottish Greens and the Scottish Parliament, delighted to be here, just introducing tonight's event. And I think it's absolutely fantastic that we've got these really strong international networks that are driving conservation. And BirdLife International has certainly been a real driving force in that area over many, many years. And I think it reminds us that, you know, we're living in an increasingly...
Stephen Magee:Right, I have grabbed Oona Duggan, who is Head of Advocacy at Birdwatch Ireland, one of the - we were just listening to speeches here, right. And like there's a bit of attention because on the one hand, people are saying Scotland is this impressive place, right. And on the other hand, we're talking about like Scotland being, like a very nature depleted place, right? How do you look at Scotland when it comes to nature and nature restoration?
Oona Duggan:Well, I mean, I can't wait to go to the Cairngorms this week to see the Cairngorms Connect project because that is just, I mean, phenomenal to consider the scale and the ambition to restore habitats there. So as far as I can see, it's leading and Ariel Brunner outlined that pretty much that Scotland is really leading the way and that he wanted to see a Cairngorms Connect in every BirdLife partner.
Stephen Magee:It is when you, I mean, so for people listening just so they know, like everybody from here is going up to like the Cairngorms so they can see some of that project. And the amazing thing that messes with my head about it, is it's the plan is a 200 year plan. Which, I mean, I know that when we're talking about nature, that's what you need to do, but still it's amazing.
Oona Duggan:It is and you know what that gives such inspiration, especially when with climate we're, you know, so kind of freaked out about 2030/2040 targets and looking at where we're heading in terms of global heating. So having something that ambitious is just really inspiring, and I think it should be something that we can really sell to our, our grandchildren as well as look, we were you know, you guys can you know, we're involved with this, we helped set this up. And that's a real example especially to BirdLife partners where we're, as Ariel said, we're looking to kind of usually protect what's left and that's not very hopeful you know, and what really we should be doing now and this restore nature law, EU Nature Restoration Law, has been go hammer and tongs for as you know, restoring nature across the range of habitats.
Stephen Magee:Like big ambitions. So one, obviously, one of the dynamics here right, is you're talking about the EU Restoration Law, you're you know, I would imagine in your work you'd be busy doing advocacy like with the European Union about that. We are not doing that for reasons outwith our, you know, RSPB Scotland's control, right. How do you think Irish civil society right and NGOs like yours, now look at us? Because our relationship must have changed in some ways, right? Because we're not in the European - we're not part of that programme anymore. How has it shifted and how is it not shifted?
Oona Duggan:Well, I mean, RSPB, including RSPB Scotland always had such a weight at EU level that I think that the NGO community in general is, is missing RSPB's, well RSPB is always going to be part of the BirdLife Europe family, but in terms of legislation and being such a heavy hitter for example and saving the birds and habitats directive, like that fitness check that was announced in 2014/2015. And I worked closely with RSPB colleagues at EU level to try and defend those critical pieces of legislation and then for Brexit to happen was such a slap in the face with the, you know, proposal for you know - and now reality that the you know that birds and habitats directive won't apply anymore if those laws are appealed here which looks like it's gonna happen so it's um, we miss - definitely miss the RSPB's heavy weight at EU level but by the same token, we've always had a great relationship in Ireland with RSPB. RSPB helped set up Ireland Birdwatcher back in 1968. And so that's really important to us, we're neighbours. We have a lot in common, we have, you know, common law that Ireland shares with with the UK. But also we've often, even at Birdwatch Ireland have looked to RSPB to help with training and ideas and to learn from each other on topics and RSPB Scotland has so much in common with Birdwatch Ireland as well because of the scale of the offshore renewables that you guys have planned up here, the amount of peatlands that you have, certain issues with deforestation so there's loads for us to stay in contact with you on.
Stephen Magee:There is, and you'd think about, you think about like the species that RSPB Scotland thinks about, you know, on a daily, you know, Corncrake, Curlew -
Oona Duggan:Hen Harrier.
Stephen Magee:Hen Harrier, White-tailed Eagle, right, these are all these are the same species that you will see -
Oona Duggan:And all the seabirds.
Stephen Magee:Yeah, yeah. So, um, I guess there will always be- I mean, this is one of the joys isn't it of like working with nature and with birds, in particular these incredibly mobile global citizens, right. These will always be things that will bring us together.
Oona Duggan:Yeah, well birds don't know what borders are. And we're on the East Atlantic flyaway. So we have to work together because it's just essential for the birds. So, you know, I think it's gonna keep going.
Stephen Magee:Right, I think most of the wine is gone now. Everybody seems to be having a nice time. Anne McCall, Director of RSPB Scotland's here. And there's a bit of a tension, I think, listening to some of the speeches and stuff today. Because on the one hand, we're saying, we're talking about things like Cairngorms Connect and amazing things are happening in Scotland, Nature Restoration Fund, like, but on the other hand, we're talking about how nature depleted Scotland is. You know. And that's - it's an odd kind of paradox. How do you bridge those two things?
Anne McCall:Well, a great question. I think, I mean, from my point of view it's about, you have to hold both of those things in your head at the same time, I guess. And, and we've talked about this before, but it's about how can you cope with being a conservationist unless you're also an optimist. And I think there's a lot of stuff that Scotland's getting right, you know, we've got some real ambition in terms of our legislation, we've got some really great projects that are delivering fantastic stuff for nature, we've got ambitions to do lots more in terms of delivering projects, and we've got the Nature Restoration Fund that's helping that. So it's a whole big bucket of good, and that's great. But at the same time, we also know that we're quite nature depleted, that we haven't turned it around yet. So we have to make that bucket bigger. But I think people need good examples and good ideas, and the kind of collaboration that makes those ideas come alive. They need that to do more of the good. So doing it on your own, just doing little things, it's not enough for nature, and it's not enough for people. So one of the fantastic things about the visit of all of our European partners, is that we get to pick their brains and hear about their fantastic stories. And that gives I think, all of us that kind of gives us- God, we're just human, you get that lift from knowing that it's possible, that it's happening somewhere else, they get a lift from knowing that it's possible and that it's happening here. And so that the bucket of the good gets bigger.
Stephen Magee:And I think the other thing I'm really shocked by is I mean, it's almost a bit of a cliche, it's birds don't recognise borders, right. But actually, when you get into it with this kind of spread of people, like I was talking to one person earlier on, and they were talking about you know, the fact that we've got seabirds on the northern, like in Scotland. But then they were also talking to somebody else about, like, the plains of Georgia, like the state. And you know, and when you think about that scale...
Anne McCall:It's kind of mad, isn't it?
Stephen Magee:It is.
Anne McCall:You know, the stuff that we see, the birds that we think of as our breeding seabirds, or our geese, they're somebody in Svalbard's geese, or they're somebody in North Africa's seabirds. And that's, that's part of why being part of BirdLife is so important. Because if we do it, that's great. But unless we do it across the whole flyway of where a bird lives and exists, then, you know, it's going to be hard to get it right.
Stephen Magee:And I think the other thing is, I wasn't sure how it would feel talking to all these people from European countries, post-Brexit right. You know, because so much of their focus is on the next big chunk of EU law in relation to nature, which will be the EU Restoration Law. But actually, I guess what it does, is it foregrounds how important these kinds of organisations in partnerships has because they survive irrespective of these political structures that come and go.
Anne McCall:Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's the same as science, you know, scientists don't operate in the bubble of the country they come from, you know, you have to learn from this great science that's happening everywhere else. And that's the same, it's true for us. It's true for conservation science. But I think, you know, the good news in Scotland is, although, you know, RSPB came out and said that leaving the European Union, we thought would not be the best route for nature. We did that at the Brexit vote, the referendum. And I think what's been very heartening for us is that Scottish Government has said they want to keep pace with Europe. And there's some really good stuff happening in Europe. So we have the networks, and we have the contacts, and we've got the people we can learn what's going on in Europe. And we can say to Scottish Government, look, here's what's happening. This is what others are doing. Are you going to meet your pledge of keeping pace? And I think the ambition they've gotten the Bute House Agreement at the moment suggests that they're trying to so yeah, for me, this is, this is kind of absolutely what conservation is about. You don't do it in a bubble, you don't just do it in your backyard, you do it with other people.
Isobel Mercer:Just picking up on what Anne finished off there. I mean, I think for all of us that were involved, it was a really kind of uplifting experience, because sometimes it can be difficult working on this stuff, you know, climate and nature emergency is a huge challenge. But I think it was just really important and inspiring to remember that we're not doing this on our own. We're not kind of a central part of it. And actually all together we're the power of many. And that together, we can achieve so much more than we can working in isolation. And thinking about some of the topics that we've discussed, and that were in that recorded session with a lot of those folks, things like bird flu and tackling pressures on migratory species. We can't do those in isolation. But it certainly was a kind of big mood booster as well, just to hear about some of the success stories, things that are going well and kind of feel like, yeah, we're all in it together.
Stephen Magee:Yeah. And we should also say that, that since that, so that was recorded kind of back in May, the really big bit of EU legislation they were talking about, EU Restoration Bill has now gone like as of I mean, we're recording this - it was yesterday it went through, which is fantastic news for a start, that they've managed to push that through. But as ever with these things, there's also a bit of a downside in that the process of getting it through has meant that quite a lot of things have got stripped out of that as well.
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it is worth mentioning, it's been a pretty action packed few weeks for the EU Restoration Law since we recorded some of those interviews and for all the BirdLife staff involved, they've been doing a huge amount of work campaigning to try and ensure that this law makes it through in as ambitious a state as possible. So big win yesterday, there was a big vote in the European Parliament. And basically there was a huge risk that the law was going to get rejected. But fortunately MEPs did vote to keep pushing this law through and now it will move to the next stage in the process, which is basically a negotiation between the three institutions of the EU to agree a final text. So, great win, great that it's still on the table. But as Stephen was saying, there were some pretty big concessions made that have significantly weakened the law. So now, BirdLife is going to be looking to ensure that the law is strengthened through the next phase in the process and try and get the ambition that we actually need if this is going to be successful for tackling the nature and climate crisis across Europe and beyond.
Stephen Magee:And one of the lessons I take from that, right is things that actually when speaking to you right in the past about things here in Scotland and government commitments and delivering stuff through policy, is that you're never done, it's a constant, right? So it's, you know, you get a commitment and a commitment is great. But then how is it framed in legislation, how does the legislation change that goes to the process, and then once the legislation is in the real world, is it implemented and enforced and monitored and regulated and all that kind of stuff, it's just, does it feel a bit never ending?
Isobel Mercer:Maybe sometimes feels a little bit never ending. But I think just going back to something that Anne was saying in that chat you were having with her, is that there is a lot of good stuff happening in Scotland. And I think it's really important to keep that in mind that we've got a lot of really significant commitments and really strong ambition on tackling the nature emergency, one of the key things is going to be this Natural Environment Bill that the Scottish Government is committed to, we're expecting that to come forward next year. And that is all fantastic. But we must kind of keep reminding ourselves that the job is absolutely not done. And it's really going to come down to how a lot of these commitments are delivered. Because at the moment, a lot of them are still nice, but nice words rather than actual delivery on the ground. And that's the real step change that we need to see happen. We need to see things move from a policy commitment from a law to actually being genuine scaled up action on the ground for nature, and kind of looking ahead towards the 2030/2045 timescale.
Stephen Magee:And I think the other main thing about that is, you know, we were talking at the beginning of the podcast about, you know, the challenges that seabirds face. And you know, that's multiplied up by all kinds of different things. There needs to be - that's the Eider Ducks by the way -
Isobel Mercer:Little Eider Duck fight happening.
Stephen Magee:There needs to be a sense of urgency about all this doesn't there, because we're past the point where we have loads of time if we ever did to solve some of these problems out.
Isobel Mercer:Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. We're running out of time. There's an urgency and I think the job for us is to help continue to communicate why it is that we need to take urgent action for nature, why we need things like this nature and Natural Environment Bill with binding nature recovery targets, why we need that to drive action forward, just as we've seen the net zero targets do you know on tackling climate change, and also to, I think, just keep building a picture of the benefits that doing this will bring as well and the kind of the realities around what will happen if we don't do this, you know, that nature is actually the foundation of our economy. It's the foundation of our society. And if we continue to let it degrade, we're putting our own future in jeopardy. So I think it's just telling that story about the risks, but also the future that we could build if if we do start recovering. Because there is a lot and I think that's a really important thing to keep getting across to people.
Stephen Magee:As people keep saying to me, if you work in conservation, you have to be an optimist, right?
Isobel Mercer:Exactly.
Stephen Magee:Right. Well, listen, thank you everybody for listening. As I say, I think the next podcast and probably if things go right - but we've now got Goosanders turned up -
Isobel Mercer:Was just gonna say we've just got - loads of Cygnets
Stephen Magee:Swans and Cygnets and everything, this is fantastic. Here's hope right in front of us. So I say the next podcast probably we'll be having a look at the challenges facing seabirds. In the meantime, you know, please do let us know what you want the podcast to cover and you can get us on Twitter@RSPBScotland. You can email us at podcast.scotland@rspb.org.uk. And please do subscribe. Tell your friends about the podcast, pass it on to somebody, leave us a review because that helps people find us. But until next time, we're just gonna sit here and watch all these Goosanders I think and speak to you next time and goodbye.
Isobel Mercer:Thanks very much for having me.