Nature News from RSPB Scotland
Keep up to date with what's going on in nature. Host Stephen Magee will have the latest news on wildlife, policy and what's going on on RSPB Scotland's amazing reserves. Get in touch @RSPBScotland on Twitter or podcast.scotland@RSPB.org.uk
Nature News from RSPB Scotland
EPISODE 28 CAN WE END THE ILLEGAL KILLING OF BIRDS OF PREY?
It's an important time for Scotland's birds of prey as the Scottish Government introduces legislation to license grouse moors in a bid to end raptor persecution.
Raptor persecution - the illegal killing of birds of prey - continues in Scotland and around the UK. In this podcast Stephen meets those working to end this criminality. He hears from RSPB Scotland's Head of Investigations Ian Thomson, Ruth Tingay from the influential Raptor Persecution UK blog and campaigner Chris Packham.
And there's the very latest on what's happening in the Scottish Parliament.
And you can help too by putting pressure on your MSPs to follow through on delivering the legislation.
LINKS
Get in touch with your MSP
https://community.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/b/scotland/posts/act-now-to-protect-birds-of-prey-and-peatlands
Report an incident
https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/how-to-report-crimes-against-wild-birds
Hello and welcome to Nature News from RSPB Scotland. I'm Steven Magee. In this episode we're focusing on raptor persecution, the illegal killing of birds of prey. We'll hear from a range of people involved in fighting this criminality, including the RSPB investigation team, Chris Packham, and Ruth Tingey from the Raptor Persecution UK blog, so stick around as we ask, can we end the illegal killing of birds of prey?
Ruth Tingay:This is Nature News from RSPB Scotland.
Stephen Magee:Hello and welcome to the pod. You join us outside the Scottish Parliament. I am with Duncan Orr-Ewing RSPB Scotland's Head of Land and Species. Hello Duncan.
Duncan Orr-Ewing:Hi there.
Stephen Magee:And the reason we are at the Parliament is this is a really big day. Right, Wildlife Management Bill stage one debate. This is a really big bit of legislation that is hopefully going to tackle amongst other things raptor persecution, right, the illegal killing of birds of prey. I mean, first of all, how big a day is this?
Duncan Orr-Ewing:Well, it's a big day. We've been talking about this stuff for years and years and years and it seemingly ever since I've been employed with the RSPB raptor persecution has been a problem. We've had various measures that have been taken to try and address this issue which have been welcomed. But they've not been enough, the problem it is still occurring. And it is closely linked with Grouse moors.
Stephen Magee:I mean, it really is, this just the last two weeks alone we've had the bird crime report for last year which fleshed out like how many cases there were across the UK. Then we've had one of the Golden Eagles from the South of Scotland Golden Eagle Project like a translocation of eagles to try and reestablish eagles down there. It has disappeared, suspicious circumstances. And Police Scotland are saying they believe it may have come to harm. And then we have had a Peregrine Falcon turn up dead in a pole trap in the Pentlands, if we like, the Crags are just behind us. So if we went to the top of the Crags we could see where that happened. It's just, it's amazing to me, this stuff is still happening.
Duncan Orr-Ewing:This is Scotland's shame. And it's been going on for years and years. Since the 1950s, all birds of prey have been protected. And we're still talking about this issue now. In many places, the situation's improve, but sadly, on many Grouse moors, this is still going on and it is going on in a relentless way.
Stephen Magee:And with the Grouse moors, to give people a sense, we will talk about this in more detail later in the podcast. But what we're looking at the core of this legislation when it comes to raptor persecution is the idea of licensing Grouse shooting, right? So the core of that is right now you've got the right to shoot on your land, that's that. This would introduce, if passed, a licensing system. And if things go wrong, if there are instances of raptor persecution on your ground, then action will be taken potentially up to and including removing your licence to shoot, ending the shooting. How significant of a potential step is that?
Duncan Orr-Ewing:Well, it is a significant step. I mean, up until now, we've not had a meaningful deterrent to raptor crime. These people want to shoot Grouse, the meaningful deterrent is to take away that right if you break the laws. I mean, we're not asking for anything extreme here. This is what happens in most other European countries.
Stephen Magee:Yeah. And crucially, you know, if you don't engage in these kinds of activities, which as you have seen have been illegal for a long time, then you've got nothing to fear from licence.
Duncan Orr-Ewing:Yeah. I mean, the voluntary approach has just not worked. You know, this issue has been raised time and time again, the Scottish Government has tried to address it. The Grouse moor sector have been put on warnings. And they have still persisted. And we've now reached the point where the Scottish Government has rightly said enough is enough. Here we are. We're at stage one of a new act, hopefully, which will take away the right to shoot if you break the law.
Stephen Magee:Absolutely. Right. We are going to go into the Parliament to listen to the debate. We'll be back at the end of the podcast to bring you up to date with what people say and have a think about what happens next because this will be a long process right? It won't be over today. In the meantime, I wanted to talk to one person in particular for this podcast and that person is Ian Thompson, our Head of Investigations. The Investigations team, actually, across the whole of the RSPB do an incredible job going out, gathering evidence, trying to support criminal prosecutions, helping us understand the scale and the extent of this problem. It's not the kind of job that people get into conservation to do in a lot of ways, but it is absolutely essential. So I met up with Ian earlier this week to talk to him about his experiences and how he got into this. Forgive us if we're a little out of breath, we have just come up the steep path behind Loch Leven Visitor Centre. But it's an amazing view out here over the loch. I'm with Ian Thompson, our Head of Investigations. Ian, first of all, a lot of people won't, will be amazed to hear about raptor persecution, right. The illegal killing of birds of prey. What is it?
Ian Thompson:So birds of prey have been protected by law since 1954. Unfortunately, they continue to be killed, and the motivation for killing them have been things like protecting crops, or livestock for example, looking after racing pigeons, but by far the most important driver of raptor persecution in Scotland over the last 30 years has been the aspirations of some to protect stocks of game birds. And the perception that allowing birds of prey into an area will mean that your stocks get diminished thereby meaning there's less birds available to be shot come the start of the shooting season.
Stephen Magee:When did you first become aware of raptor persecution? Yeah I can imagine at that age, it's like this is a really big
Ian Thompson:I was still a school, I was a teenager, I was deal. a bit of an odd teenager, where my friends were out playing football or doing whatever other teenagers do. I was going out watching birds. And I became good friends with members of I was sort of 16/17 years old. And it was just, you know, what was then the very early stages of the Northeast Scotland Raptor Study Group. And myself and a friend at a time we were given an area of Deeside to monitor. And we would do up there every time every opportunity we could. I grew up in Aberdeen, I would jump on the bus, took about an hour to get up to somewhere like a Glen. And then we'd walk into the hills. And lucky enough to find birds like Merlin and Hen Harrier, and a couple of pairs of Hen Harriers, we basically watched having seen these birds from I don't know, a mile half a mile a from earlier in the season, about April time sitting on the mile away, to actually be able to go right up to the nest site. hill opposite watching them displaying. And then we're able as we went back week after week after week, we're able to identify where their nest was. Now, we weren't allowed to go near their nest, because we didn't have a licence. But obviously we told our friends in the raptor study group. And then it was with a great deal of pride and privilege, they asked me to accompany them when they went to ring the chicks at the nest. And this was just the best thing ever. So that was the first nest we went to. And that was fantastic. And then we went to the Glen, where I'd been working. And as we approached the nest, there was absolutely nothing doing. And when we got to it, it was clear that it had been destroyed, human interference, and there's no sign of any of the birds and we went to the other nests that we've seen and it was exactly the same result. And I was horrified. I felt sick to my stomach. My friends were angry, disappointed, frustrated. And this was my first experience of raptor persecution. And I guess I kind of knew it occurred. But it was a sort of remote thing.
Stephen Magee:Like a theoretical thing
Ian Thompson:Yes. Having watched these birds for I don't know, two, three months. And then suddenly, just at the point where the young were only maybe two or three weeks away from fledging for somebody to have gone in and destroyed the nest site. I mean, we don't know exactly how whether the birds were shot, I don't know. But it was clear that it was human interference, you could see where somebody kicked the nest around and all sorts. So it was grim. But that stuck in my mind. And it's, I can remember that day now, 40 odd years on, I can remember that feeling. And the problem for me is that doing this job, which I've now been in for 17 years working for RSPB Investigations, is still happening. And we still get that feeling whenever we come across these dead birds of prey or destroyed nests or illegal traps or whatever. But now the feeling of disappointment and frustration is accompanied with a determination to get it stopped.
Stephen Magee:I mean, we'll come to the things that are hopefully happening that might mean that they'll - I mean, stopping it is a massive bea - but you know, bearing down even further on it, but I want to go back to kind of one of the things you're talking about there about your feelings about it because you must have seen so many destroyed nests, actual birds, you know, poisoned birds, shot birds, trapped birds. What's the cumulative impact of that on you? How did you - do your feelings change over time?
Ian Thompson:No, no you - unfortunately I guess you almost learn to live with it. There are many places in Scotland now that you almost expect to come across that. You expect to find dead birds, you expect that that Hen Harrier nesting attempt is going to fail, you expect that the traps are going to be mismanaged or abused. And it's a kind of weary inevitability to it all. But that doesn't diminish the thought, the feeling, that something needs to change this because this has been going on a lot longer than the 40 years I've had experience of it. It's been going on for decades, since game bird shooting became a thing. People have killed the things they think will eat the game birds.
Stephen Magee:One of the things in your time, both initially as somebody who is interested in raptors, and then as somebody who's worked specifically on this, one of the things I would imagine is changes is the allies that you have, right, has there been a big change over time and the attitudes of like the Police and other you know, environmental organisations that are involved in this.
Ian Thompson:We have other organisations like Revive have come on board, and they're very good at social media. We work very closely with the Scottish Raptor Study Group, we've had the development of the National Wildlife Crime Unit from the Police, we've had the Police Scotland has evolved into one force from being different forces from when I started. So yeah, things have definitely changed, one advantage that we also have in Scotland, more so than the rest of the UK I think is that our politicians are more accessible, much more than Westminster. And that applies to people of all interests. You know, it's not difficult to get a meeting with your member of the Scottish Parliament or even a minister.
Stephen Magee:The reason we are doing this podcast about this subject right now, right, is the politics of it. It's the fact we've got the Wildlife Management Bill going through. How, given that sense of the weary inevitability that you were talking about, how hopeful are you? Because we've had so many different bits of legislation in the past, we've had like vicarious liability, we've had all kinds of different but both statute and other kinds of measures, right, that were meant to address this, does this feel any different to you?
Ian Thompson:It does, it does. I think I use the phrase weary inevitability because experience has told me that it's almost impossible for somebody to be brought to account for these offences. Even though in many cases, we have a pretty good idea who is likely to been responsible. I mean, if you find a Golden Eagle poisoned in the middle of a Grouse moor, miles from anywhere, there's only going to be a very, very limited number of people who have the motive, who have the opportunity, who have the I guess the sort of the equipment in the case of shooting, for example, who can do that, the
Stephen Magee:But currently, the issue is that you've got to access - prove - you've got links to an individual to a standard of criminal proof, which is beyond reasonable doubt, which in these cases is...I mean, to me, it's a massive testament to the commitment of you and the people that you work with, and also the Police and Fiscal Service that you ever get any prosecutions for this at all, because it's so difficult.
Ian Thompson:It is absolutely and this has been the problem. It basically we've had a situation where the risk of killing a bird of prey has been outweighed by a perceived benefit. So for example, if you kill a Hen Harrier, then in the person's head who is committing that crime, they're gonna think,'oh, we'll they're not going to eat 20 Grouse, that's great. It's worth it.' And what we've always needed is in the back of the person's mind as they raise that gun to shoot at that bird of prey, 'oh wait a minute, I better not.'
Stephen Magee:And that is further exacerbated, that negative situation you're talking about, by the fact that even if you guys do get a prosecution over the line, the sentence, although there's the you know, the - what's the maximum sentence in the wildlife countryside?
Ian Thompson:Well, it could potentiall go to prison.
Stephen Magee:Could go to prison, right? But the sentences are not like that are they?
Ian Thompson:We've had one custodial sentence for raptor persecution offences ever in Scotland. And that was an individual that we filmed illegally killing a Goshawk, catching another Goshawk and a Buzzard and illegally operating traps. But that was video evidence. How often does that happen?
Stephen Magee:Yeah. So the crucial thing about this new legislation is that by introducing licensing, and which don't worry, we will go on the podcast later on to explain a lot more about the detail of that right. But the basic idea of of the licensing is that on a balance of probabilities, so on a civil standard on a 50/50 standard, somebody could lose their right to shoot. And maybe that is something that will be in people's heads as that deterrent that you're talking about.
Ian Thompson:Exactly. And it won't necessarily need to be linked to an individual, it will be made to link to the management of the land. So if, for example, going to that poisoned Golden Eagle scenario, you find your bird that tests positive for being killed by a banned pesticide, then if the Police do a follow up search, and they find a trace of that banned pesticide, seeing an estate vehicle or on a building or something like that. You may well still not be able to identify who the individual that put the bait out that killed that eagle was. But what you will be able to establish is that that estate has been involved in the use of illegal poisonings because you found traces of it in their vehicle. And there is your rationale for potentially losing a license.
Stephen Magee:Now, Ian did mention there that there's a lot of other people also involved in this discussion who are concerned about raptor persecution and really committed to ending it. And I had the chance to go to the REVIVE coalition conference a couple of weeks ago, which brings together a whole bunch of people who are interested in the reform of Grouse moors. And this is what I heard. I'm in Perth, down by the river. A little kind of ripply bit. It's a beautiful autumn day today. The trees are all golden. Coming up in the train from Edinburgh, we were in and out of mist. Super super autumnal and I'm in Perth because REVIVE is having its conference here this year. Now REVIVE is an organisation that looks at Grouse moor reform. And I'm hoping to go along and hear from people who thought about what some of the problems around Grouse moor management are, but also crucially, what the solutions might be. So I'm going to have to tear myself away from this little sunned up bit of water, head up to the Royal Concert Hall, see who I can find You join me at Perth Royal Concert Hall, there are a few
Robbie Marsland:REVIVE calls itself, and I think is right, a to talk to. 100 people here for this, it's a great turnout. It's all kinds of different people from different organisations like raptor study unique coalition of animal welfare, environmental and groups, different kinds of environmental organisations, the Police and stuff are here. It's kinda like - and everybody really focused on like birds of prey and raptors and stuff. It's kinda like if you've ever been to Comic Con, it's kind of like Comic Con for like raptor nerds. It's good. Let's see what we can find. I'm afraid I've dragged Robbie Marsland away from his lunch. Robbie, you're here for the League Against Cruel Sports, but also like being the motivating force behind REVIVE as the coalition. social justice organisations. And that's important because REVIVE can't be dismissed as a bunch of animal huggers. Yeah, that's what's happened over the years. REVIVE suddenly, as you heard this morning, and the whole there REVIVE is talking about land reform, as well as Grouse moor reform. Yeah. At the beginning of the formation of
Stephen Magee:And ultimately, it is a coalition, right. And there are other organisations who are not necessarily in the the coalition, I described it as a multi generational campaign. I coalition, for example, but who are contributing to this debate today. You know, and if we look at what's in front of us, irrespective of different people's aims as to what the end game is, is the measures that the Scottish Government are think that, you know, for change to come about, you need to make currently proposing the Wildlife Management Bill do not signal the end of Grouse shooting, they are about potentially licensing and managing it is the wildlife management. Right, you know. So these are actually in many ways, I would think, from your point of view, maybe even problematically modest. the first step. And five years ago, I thought REVIVE was making the first step and I wouldn't see the sort of change that we envisage in my lifetime. I've changed my mind. We've got 650/700 people in the room who were interested in all the issues. So there's about 600 or 700 people here, but there is one person who everybody's trying to get on with. And that is Chris Packham. But hopefully, in a bit, I'm going to be able to grab him too.
Conference Host:Without any more ado, everyone the brilliant Chris Packham.
Chris Packham:Thank you very much, indeed. And thank you for giving up your Sunday to come to the REVIVE conference 2023, the largest yet, 600 people have registered, some people still coming in. That's fantastic. People have come from far and wide, different parts of Scotland. Some of us have travelled from our neighbouring countries, England, I've come up from the South of England, one person has made the extraordinary journey all the way from Western Australia. What about that. Amazing.
Stephen Magee:In your opening remarks, you were talking about how this shouldn't be a binary thing. It shouldn't be us and them. First of all, why do you think that?
Chris Packham:It's much easier to make creative progress through effective conversation. The trouble with the binary division is that it shuts down that conversation. People polarise, they take sides, they draw lines in the sand. And then for very many simple human reasons, pride, and so forth, arrogance, they find it very difficult to cross that line in the sand once it's been drawn. It's so much easier not to have them drawn in the first place.
Stephen Magee:There are some aspects of this, which are binary, like for example, raptor persecution, there's no you know, one of the frustrations is quite often it's presented as there are two sides to a debate, there are not. Raptor persecution is illegal, it's an environmental crime. How do you go about navigating, having that kind of debate in an environment where there's still that criminality existing?
Chris Packham:Well there should be no tolerance for that criminality whatsoever. In the destruction of our birds of prey is robbing us of our National Natural Heritage. There was an important ecological reason why we need these birds as well. It's not just about the fact that people want to be driving through Scotland looking up and watching eagles soaring overhead. And, you know, we need to have functional, sustainable ecological communities here. And you can't have that without these predators. So no, there's no ambiguity about that whatsoever. We should throw all of our energies into the rigorous persecution of those who persecute our raptors. That's simply the law. And on that account, we've got the law on our side. And I think it's one of those things that enrages people so much, because there is no ambiguity about that. And yet, they're still getting away with it. And they're getting away with it because it's so difficult for teams like the RSPB's investigation teams to gather the evidence, and even when they do a brilliant job of that, to get it through the courts and then see meaningful sentencing. And I suppose that's the last stumbling block when we do catch these people out and we work very closely with the Police. We get them into court, the judiciary are not giving them sentences which fit the crimes and that's enraging the public. So yes, it's negative. But I think sometimes that rage when it's - or that anger, can be an energy when it's turned into something creative. And here in Scotland, through the work of the RSPB and other agencies too, you know, it has been turned into something positive because we've managed to convince the politicians here that a better way forward is licencing. And those who transgress the licence with sometimes things like persecuting birds of prey would lose it and then justice will be done.
Stephen Magee:How positive do you feel about the way things are moving now in Scotland? How hopeful are you?
Chris Packham:A lot more positive than the way that they're moving in England. There's no doubt about that. The Scottish Government is leading some significant reforms here, some of them symbolic like the ban on snares and Mountain Hare culling, some far more significant when it comes to Grouse moor licencing and at some point in the future land reform. So I think there are real opportunities at this point for the people of Scotland to drive through those things. And of course, what we hope is that at some stage in the future, others will follow where Scotland can lead.
Stephen Magee:To play devil's advocate for a second, right. Donald Dewar, the first Scottish First Minister described raptor persecution as a national disgrace. Countless environment ministers have come and gone, we've had vicarious liability, you know, which attempted to make land owners responsible for things that happened on the land, a lot of these things have got tied up and frustrated and courts and exactly the same way that you talked about when you were talking about trying to get prosecutions under legislation that's been in a statute book since 1981. Are things different enough now?
Chris Packham:Well we're finding our voice. There are 600 people here today with a common voice. And that voice is crying out for urgent reform, based upon good science, good data, and hope for a better future. So our voice is getting louder. Why haven't we made progress more rapidly? Well, because we haven't been exercising that voice in the right way. We've been highly motivated. But I would say that some of our methods haven't been appropriate. And certainly our messages haven't been getting across because they've not been listened to. We should have been more forceful, we should have held our politicians to a greater account. But now we're finding our feet and we are making that progress, it's late in the day, we've got no choice now the matter has become extremely urgent. But ultimately, I think also, it's unfair to say, well, our politicians have failed us hold on, we put the crosses in the boxes, we chose them to represent us if we then didn't hold them to account because they were failing to represent us, our views and our hopes for a future then it also comes down to us as well. People must at this point recognise that as citizens of Scotland, citizens of Planet Earth, they must stand up, shout above the noise and recognise that they are empowered to make a difference.
Stephen Magee:We've stepped outside because I've got the chance to talk to Lorna Slater. Who's the Biodiversity Minister in the Scottish Government. Apologies for the skateboarders in the background. And first of all, everybody here really is talking about this Wildlife and Management Muirburn Bill. In as brief away as possible, what is it about from your perspective?
Lorna Slater:The number one thing about this bill from my perspective, is tackling raptor persecution, these beautiful birds that we know are being killed, you know, sometimes illegally, we have to tackle that. But while we're at it, we can look at making sure that our land management practices in this case, particularly Grouse moors, are the best that we can possibly make them. We want all land managers to be managing for nature and biodiversity.
Stephen Magee:It's obviously very encouraging, from our point of view right, to hear that raptor persecution is at the heart of that. But one of the things that people have been involved in the debate about raptor persecution for a long time will say is that we have had success if environment ministers say that, you know, right back to even Donald Dewar as the first First Minister, say that raptor persecution is Scotland's shame. But we've had multiple bits of legislation, you know, vicarious liability, all kinds of things, but it has persisted. What is it that you think about this approach that means that will be different?
Lorna Slater:This approach is about licencing the taking of Grouse. And this means that we can apply a different standard so that if we are, you know, have evidence that raptor persecution is linked to particular Groues moor practices, that means that we can look at the licence that has been issued to that Grouse moor and that licence could be suspended or even withdrawn. So that means that there applies a different level of risk to the business model of Grouse moors, those who would kill birds illegally, because that was part of their normal business practices, now have a reason to reconsider that because we have a new tool in our toolbox to look at their business model if they are not adhering to the law and to good practice.
Stephen Magee:And the argument being made here actually is that is a major shift because what you're going from is something that you know, our own Head of Investigations, Ian Thompson, refers to as tinkering around the edges, to something which is absolutely core, which is the money at the heart of Grouse shooting, right, that's what you're potentially taking away from people.
Lorna Slater:Absolutely. We want to make sure that nature restoration is at the heart of everything we do in Scotland, and that isn't in private interests to damage our fragile ecosystems in Scotland, particularly coming after such precious species to us as raptors, many of whom are endangered or at risk. So this is part of a kind of larger picture of us working together to stop the decline of nature in Scotland and substantially restore it by 2045.
Stephen Magee:One of the anxieties commonly expressed here is that this legislation once passed will be dependent on a series of different licences, there will be a licence for a shooting Grouse, there'll be different kinds of licences for muirburn, you know, the practice of burning as well. And all of that means monitoring and enforcement by public agencies, we're living through a cost of living crisis, there's a lot of competing pressures on governments, what guarantees can you give people that the extra resources will be there to make sure that this is actually done?
Lorna Slater:A big part of this is actually a change of culture of expectations. It's gone from being 'Oh, please don't break the law and do good practice!' You must adhere to the legal requirements, you must use good practice. So part of this is setting those expectations with the sector and in that culture, of course, enforcement and monitoring is going to be really important. And that's something that as Minister for Biodiversity, I'm working very hard to make sure we do have the right resources in place to ensure this going forward. And this is going to be true, you know, across our efforts on nature restoration, not just in the raptor persecution in Grouse moor space, we absolutely need the right resources to make this big change of direction from nature being in decline as it currently is to stopping that decline by 2030 and substantially restoring it by 2045. This is a big shift culturally in the enforcement space and also in our business you know, for businesses who are working in this space too.
Stephen Magee:Right, it's almost home time. Everybody's heading out but I'm afraid I have buttonholed Ruth Tingay. The person behind the Raptor Persecution UK Blog. Where do you think we are right now with raptor persecution specifically?
Ruth Tingay:Where we are today, the raptor persecution issue has brought us to where we have this bill, the Wildlife Management Bill about to go through Parliament, that has come about- legislation has come about because raptor persecution has continued. Despite all the warnings, all the opportunities, the industry, the shooting industry has been given to stop killing raptors, they haven't taken it for whatever reason. So here we are, with the licencing scheme, proposed licencing scheme about to go through Parliament, let's see what it looks like when it gets through all the scrutiny and the various stages.
Stephen Magee:I don't want to be a Debbie Downer. But we have looked at a lot of different measures on this before, you know, like, you know, like vicarious liability being like a major one where the idea was put the onus back on landowners. And just just like in the real world, things don't materialise because it's super complex. And these are hard crimes to detect and vested interests come into play. How confident are you that this will be different?
Ruth Tingay:Well, it's hard to be confident until we've seen the practicality of what enforcement is proposed. And at the moment, we don't know what that is. And as far as I'm concerned, the enforcement is key. You can have as much legislation as you want, if it's not being properly enforced, and it doesn't matter, it makes no difference. So let's see what they propose. Let's see what's in the code of practice. Let's see how much funding is going to be put into resourcing that enforcement, you know, are these estates going to be charged to have a licence? They bloody well should be because I don't want to be funding enforcement, they should be funding enforcement. So if that happens, great. If that doesn't happen, forget it. It's absolutely pointless.
Stephen Magee:One of the things that always confuses me right about the raptor stuff, is some of it seems to me to be commercially driven. Right. So some of it is about I need to have, you know, to get the bags I need in the next season, I need X amount of Grouse, right? Some of it seems to be almost cultural, that it's almost like you're not doing the job right, unless you do certain things and shifting that cultural dial is so difficult.
Ruth Tingay:Yeah, it is. And I was looking at a painting yesterday morning that Queen Victoria commissioned, a Landseer painting and she commissioned it for Prince Albert, she wanted to show a gamekeeper/gilly standing on a hill holding a dead Golden Eagle. I found this photograph of this painting which is hung up in Windsor Castle somewhere. I've never seen it before. But it just struck me the power of that and the influence of that frugal system has been around for so long. How do you change that, you know, birds of prey have been technically been protected in the UK for almost 70 years. That's a lifetime for most gamekeepers. You know, most of these old school old time gamekeepers, birds of prey have been protected for their whole career. And yet still, there's this culture within that community, not all of them, but some hardcore gamekeepers have this belief that birds of prey are pests, they're vermin, they need to die, and yeah, we're gonna kill them.
Stephen Magee:To sum up like, you know, speaking to the minister but the earlier on and that the judgement that the Scottish Government is making in this is that if you, if you make licencing which poses an existential threat to your ability to keep shooting the core of your approach, you overcome those cultural factors, because the reality of just not being able to shoot at all is such a powerful deterrent. What do you think?
Ruth Tingay:It's a deterrent if the risk of getting caught is big enough. That's essentially what it is. And yes, they will have to address it, you know, either address it or die, basically. But like I said before, let's see what the enforcement measures are. Because if they think that as now, the risk of being caught is so slim, it is worth the risk of committing the crime, especially if you're only getting you know, a couple of 100 quid fines. The threat of having your business licence taken away should be enough to force change. But yeah, let's see who's enforcing it.
Stephen Magee:Right. Let's hope it works out. I'll let you get away for your tea.
Ruth Tingay:Thank you.
Stephen Magee:Right, you join us back outside the Scottish Parliament and stage one of the Wildlife Management and Muirburn Bill debate is over. We have had decision time, and it has been - the general principles of the bill had been endorsed by the Parliament, Duncan, which is which is great news.
Duncan Orr-Ewing:That is great news. And it was great to hear sort of largely cross party support for the principles of the bill, which we very much welcomed. You know, there was a lot of debate going on in there around certain issues that we know are questions, you know, hopefully we can provide answers to those as we go along.
Stephen Magee:Yeah absolutely, and what people should understand about this process is, this is very much the beginning, right? The stage one is where you just talk about, as it said, the general principles of the bill's direction of travel, there's clearly from that debate and from everything we know about the committee evidence that was taken previous to this as well, there's still gonna be a lot of discussion, potentially a lot of amendment, potentially a lot of changes. One thing that I was very struck by was that the contributions from people who were opposed, particularly to the licencing of Grouse shooting, often attempted to characterise this legislation as an attack on rural communities, right, as a metropolitan elite trying to impose themselves in rural communities. And I was struck listening to that by all the people that you will know Duncan better than I, in raptor study groups or people who are living in rural communities who really care about the biodiversity crisis and their wildlife and thinking about how they would feel being characterised like that.
Duncan Orr-Ewing:Yeah, I mean, clearly, we draw, you know, our supporters from a broad church, but many of our supporters live in rural areas, and write to us repeatedly being concerned about this issue. You know, raptor persecution is an issue that affects us all. Whether you live in urban areas, or whether you live in rural areas. It's a blight on Scotland. You know, we really welcomed some of the statements that we heard in the chamber today, absolutely condemning outright raptor persecution.
Stephen Magee:Yeah and I have to say, every single - even people who were sceptical about the legislation always preface their remarks by saying that raptor persecution was unacceptable. So we do now move into a period where there's going to be a lot of debate discussion, potentially movement, you know, we will obviously as an organisation along with other stakeholders, keep a close eye on that. But there are still things that people can do to help with that. First of all actually we should say, if you see evidence of rapture persecution, there are things you can do.
Duncan Orr-Ewing:Yeah, if you find a dead raptor, and you suspect that it's been illegally killed, please call the police on Crimestoppers or contact RSPB investigations and report it, and we will make sure it gets into the hands of the Police. The other thing we would ask our members and supporters and all those who care about Scotland's raptors is to contact your MSPs and tell them that you support the principles of the bill. And you want to see an end to raptor persecution because that is what this is about.
Stephen Magee:Yeah, absolutely. And it's very clear from this, that this debate is not yet done. Right. Well, you know, in the same way that debate is not done, our coverage of it is not done as well. We will be talking about raptor persecution in the future. But in the meantime, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please do leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts because it really helps people find us in the podcast jungle, and also subscribe. Duncan, thank you very much for making the time. Really appreciate it. That's all from this edition of the podcast and thanks for listening and goodbye.